Kemper Crabb - Harry Potter Interview - With Jenni Simmons

It is that time of the year for Pumpkin Ale, all things black and orange and creepy, and cute little trick or treaters - it is Halloween in America. Of course the majority of Christians donıt embrace this holiday, for it is evil. No, they have 'fall festivals' full of pretty leaves or 'Hell Houses' instead of celebrating what October 31st is really all about: All Hallows Eve, which is the Eve of the Christian Feast of All Saints. Anyway, what a better way to to end this month by talking to Kemper Crabb about another issue that most Christians love to hate - Harry Potter. I personally love the kid with glasses, so I was intrigued as to Kemper's thoughts. I invited Mr. Crabb into the Simmons' home, and we chatted while my black cat, Buddy, sat in my lap.
Jenni Simmons

Jenni: Are you a fan of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter books and movies?

Kemper: Yes.

Jenni: What do you like about them?

Kemper: Well, I like the movies because they are very much like the books. In fact, of all the movie versions of books that I have seen, they are some of the most accurate ones. As a matter of fact, during the movies I knew precisely what each character was going to say because I remembered their conversations from the books. And, I suppose I like the books because they promote witchcraft and magic, and I figure they will turn millions of innocent children into slavering tools of Satan. Is that what you meant?

Jenni: Yes, exactly! So, why do you think Harry Potter's wizardry fascinates so many in our culture?

Kemper: I think we live in a culture that is the product of Post-Enlightenment rationalism and what we have is a society with four primary power structures that are self-consciously and self-avowedly rationalist. One of these structures is education, which has wholeheartedly bought into the whole rationalistic phenomenon: "Man is the measure of all things, and only what can be understood by his mind is real." They have also bought into a reductionistic naturalism which basically doesn't believe in the existence of the supernatural, or if it does, it is peripheral so that there is really no supernatural at all. The civil government is committed largely to the same thing which is why for instance, you cannot pray in public schools. The financial world is largely like this, also, because most of those folks are educated in our public institutions. The only part of our society that is not completely this way is the arts and entertainment aspect, and that tends to be the place where the desire for mystery comes out, because it is so hard-wired into men who are all made in the image of God. The thing is, people assent to being rationalist because they are educated that way, but actually most people are not truly rationalistic, but they are not about to admit that because they stand to lose face among their peers. The other problem is that the Church in America has become as rationalistic as possible in order to gain some kind of acceptance in the eyes of the world, and in many ways this includes the evangelical Church. They have believed as little as possible of the supernatural because they have been so influenced by the same pagan anti-supernaturalism that rules our universities and so forth. The Church has become a place where there is less and less mystery. The exceptions to this are the Charismatics and to some extent, the more orthodox versions of the liturgical Churches. Unfortunately, in many cases these Churches place too much emphasis on mystery so that they end up losing content which tends to alienate them even further from the rationalistic part of the Church. All of this is to say that our society officially does not have a place for the supernatural. We have millions of people in the New Age movement because they know deep in their DNA that mystery exists, and if they can't find it in Church, they are going find it somewhere. Again, the supernatural shows up in its most virulent form within our entertainment - our novels, our music, movies, and so on. Science fiction, for example, puts things so far into the future that the technologies almost seem like magic. I think it was Arthur C. Clark who said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So, science fiction fulfills that mode because it allows people to still be respectable in their rationalistic leanings and yet still get their fix on the supernatural. That is one way; another way is fantasy, such as the Harry Potter books. In fantasy, the authors posit a world where the supernatural is real and where bravery actually matters, chivalry is true, and evil is really evil. Our civilization since the Enlightenment has not recognized these values - there can be no ultimate meaning in a world where there is no God or supernatural, it all comes down to preference. So, you have millions of people reading fantasy books who are desperately hungry for mystery. A darker sub-branch of fantasy is horror, such as Stephen King's novels. Although there are times where you think Stephen King has embraced at least some of the tenets of Christianity (the book Desperation is a great example of that), he is actually exploring darker themes and presenting a world where evil is real and dark. Even though it is sometimes repulsive, it is also fascinating to people who donıt think they can believe in the existence of such things, but deep down they know it is true and they are scared. All of these aspects of our society are rooted in the fact that we in the image of God truly need mystery.

Now, I think there are other psychological reasons why kids are drawn to the Harry Potter books, such as the fact that they relate to this young hero who works through problems, fights for good, and overcomes evil. As for adults who read them, I think it is because they are entertaining and well-written. The books sure arenıt lost on me; anyone who has read interviews with Rowling knows that one of her primary influences was C.S. Lewis. The reason she wrote seven books was because of Lewis's seven Chronicles of Narnia. So, that is probably a longer answer than you ever wanted to hear, but there you go.

Jenni: It was perfect. Now, if the books have positive messages, why is there so much controversy among Christians?

Kemper: In some ways it is understandable because Scripture explicitly outlaws the practice of witchcraft in Deuteronomy, Leviticus, and other places. Magic is real and dangerous. I know that you know my family's history - my father was a practitioner of dark magic for many years. I grew up in a house that was very familiar with it, and there has rarely been a day in my life when I have not trafficked with spirits. I know that it is real; I have battled magic in many people's lives, and I've counseled many people coming out of the occult. It is a destructive force. A lot of people knowing how destructive it is, and knowing that characters in Rowling's books are called witches or warlocks, assume the books are promoting the practice of witchcraft by children. So I understand the reaction and definitely think parents should be responsible for what their children read. However, at the same time I know the words of Jesus, "Judge not according to appearance, but judge a righteous judgement." I think there is a basic misunderstanding among many Christians about what is going on in the Harry Potter books. First of all, Harry Potter and his people are not humans. Even most kids will tell you that Muggles are average humans like you and me, and the witches and warlocks are a special society with powers - they are a different race than humans. The assumption is that humans cannot practice magic in these books. Strangely, most kids are more intelligent than grown ups in regards to this - kids know when something is pretend. They know if they are dressed up like Superman, they are not really Superman and they can't really fly. Even kids who dress up like Harry Potter know they cannot really do magic because hey, they are Muggles! Most adults who criticize the books have not read them or read any of Rowlingıs interviews which is a huge part of the problem. I mean, in her stories evil is always evil, good is always good, there are dire consequences if you serve evil, and benefits if you serve good. To me, in a non-human setting, it is an eloquent depiction of, generally speaking, Biblical values.

Jenni: Jesus taught that lusting in one's heart is the same as adultery. Is fantasy about wizardry the same as actual wizardry?

Kemper: One thing about adultery is, if you are a human, you are capable of committing adultery. You have the physical ability to accomplish that. However, if you are reading one of the Harry Potter books and imagining that you are a non-human that can practice magic, you are not a non-human capable of doing magic! You are not a wizard; you are either a goof ball or an idiot to think you can do those things. So, in answer to your question, I would say, no, as it pertains to these particular books unless you can escape being a human being which is not a realistic scenario. Jesus was not saying don't look at women, He was saying don't look at women and lust for them in your heart. He was talking about dealing with your sin where you are, so I think that's a temptation that comes with any exercise of your will over your environment. Thatıs what is so ludicrous to me about people arguing over these books because our kids don't really live in the world of Harry Potter. I know it canıt really be true that children are more intelligent that adults, but it does make me wonder sometimes.

Jenni: In light of all this, do you think that in general, Christians don't know how to read fiction?

Kemper: Yeah, there is no question about that. People donıt even know how to read their Bibles. They insist on this woodenly-literal reading of things even where it's not intended to be literal - where poetic language is being used, for example. I think our utilitarian world's pragmatism rules the day, so a lot of nuance is lost in our world. I do think Christians don't know how to read well, although we should be the ones who do know how since the Book that God gave us invited all of these artistic principles and genres that are employed in Scripture, whether itıs poetry, apocalyptic literature, narratives, epistolary forms, etc. We are hampered in our reading of Scripture and general literature because we don't place value in those things. Most Christians are functional pragmatists anyway; they want a technique, their own form of magic, some kind of quick fix even in their faith life. It is that same attitude that rules how they read Scripture, and how they read literature. That is one of the reasons the Church is an absolute zero integer in its influence on the cultural world presently, except for the few Christians who know differently. Consequently, the pagans rule the realm of the arts at this time because the Church thinks they know better.

Jenni: In this generation, Christians seem to react more negatively to the Harry Potter books vs. Tolkienıs Lord of the Rings trilogy. Why do you think this is?

Kemper: One reason is that C.S. Lewis and Tolkien both did not make any bones about their Faith. I think Christians tend to trust them more because they know those two are coming from a Christian world view. They are unsure about Rowling even though she at least makes moderate claims to being an Anglican and admits to believing in God, and one of her primary influences is Lewis himself. She may not have your standard evangelical understanding of things, but neither did Tolkien. However, because she hasn't come right out and said, "I write from a Christian world view," people tend to be suspicious of her stories. They will say things like, "There is no higher power in her stories" or "her stories are dualistic." It's just another example of Christians not being able to understand. They think you have to give the entire world view in every novel and song which is why so many Christian books and songs are boring. I mean, in the real world Christians know things Biblically, but we don't think consciously about them all the time; we assume them. To demand an entire world view of the Harry Potter books is disingenuous.

Jenni: What is the difference between the characters Harry Potter and Gandalf?

Kemper: Gandalf is an angel, one of the primary guardian spirits sent into the world by God in Tolkien's trilogy. As such, even though we think of Gandalf as a wizard, in that world it does not mean exactly the same thing. People who are wizards in that world are always sort of angelic creatures. Also, Gandalf possesses a great deal of knowledge. In fact, in some ways he is more like Dumbledore of the Harry Potter series because Gandalf is ancient and extremely more powerful than humans. Even though there is development in his character, he figures things out as he struggles with choices, much like high angels do in reality. Lucifer did that and lost, the angels that followed him into rebellion did that and lost, and many angels do this and make positive. On the other hand, even though Harry Potter is not a human, Rowling uses his character to show conflicts that are essentially human conflicts. He is a kid growing up, he's figuring it all out, he doesn't always know what the deal is, he has powers but a lot of the time he's not even sure how to use his powers. Whereas Gandalf knows the lay of the land, is a fully mature being who is sure of himself and his abilities, and is a kind of wisdom figure. Harry Potter is a seeker or a quest figure who is moving towards maturity trying to figure out who he is supposed to be.

Jenni: How should a Christian read the Harry Potter books?

Kemper: I suggest English.

Jenni: What if they are Hispanic?

Kemper: In that case they should learn English because J.K. Rowling writes in English, and itıs always better to read a work in its native language. Other than that, they should read the books the same way we read anything else - through the grid of Scripture. You have to make sound judgements. You have to look at this fantasy world to some extent according to the rules of its existence that Rowling has made up. Even though the rules are made up, they have some verisimilitude to things in our world. For instance, magic is just another technology in Harry Potter's world even though it is only utilized by a special race of people. A Christian has to look at anything they read, and try to draw from it things that are good, true, and just. I personally think there is a lot in the Harry Potter books that a Christian can find and be encouraged to do in order to live out their Faith correctly in the world. And, I think this motive was behind J.K. Rowlingıs concern for her own daughter. She was hoping the books would help her use her imagination to reach correct conclusions in our world so that she can live out values such as bravery, self-sacrifice, unquestionable loyalty, humility, and confidence. Those are good qualities and a clear analogy of how the Gospel teaches us to live. As always, a Christian has to read critically, but they also have to read intelligently by going to a book for what it is, not for what you decide it is going to be.

Jenni: You seem to be saying that it is even beneficial for the Church to read the Harry Potter books.

Kemper: I think it is very beneficial. Once again, you have to do so intelligently, but I do think they are great books. They are kind of little stories that seek to embody these classically valuable Christian virtues, albeit in a fantasy world. But a lot of times, people who write fantasy realize that it is easier to see the way things should work in a world that is somewhat different from our own; close enough to our world so that we can relate to it, but different enough for us to see things played out in a background and setting that we do not take for granted. So yeah, I do think these books are good and helpful. I mean, I would rather see someone read Athanasius, or Augustine, and read the Bible more than anything. But if you want to sit down and read a ripping good yarn that edifies you in the process, then Rowling's books are wonderful, especially books that are so popular among children. It is very easy to take those stories that most children know so well and draw Biblical analogies to them.

Jenni: When your daughter was young, would you have allowed her to read the Harry Potter series, and how would you have guided her reading?

Kemper: Oh, of course I would have. The main thing that Christian parents need to do is teach their children to think critically about what they read or hear. This requires that the parents be involved in what their children are doing. My daughter listened to all kinds of music while she was growing up, but that's because while we were listening to the radio, I would routinely point out to her, "This guy is saying this. What do you think that means?" And she would say, "Well, it means this." And I would say, "Well, it is more like this, and what does the Bible say about that?" So by the time she was 8 or 9, she was much more sophisticated at interpreting lyrics than most of the adults I knew. The same thing is true for literature. We would talk about books, and any areas of danger. If it was Harry Potter I would have reminded her that Scripture outlaws sorcery and witchcraft and that it is scary and dangerous. Of course, my daughter already understood that from growing up in my house. I would have also talked about the difference between witches and warlocks in the real world which are not the same thing as the witches and warlocks in Rowling's books. Before people start authoritatively denouncing something, they should check it out and be more guarded in their criticisms.

Jenni: As we close talking about books, which I love, have you read anything recently that you would recommend?

Kemper: Yeah, Neil Gaiman has a new Sandman novel which is great. Also, Neil Stephenson has a brand new novel called Quicksilver (The Baroque Cycle, Vol. 1) set in an alternative Renaissance - I just started it. Dan Simmons just published his first novel called Ilium - a retelling of the Trojan war set in the far future. These A.I. creatures have adapted themselves in the persona of the Greek gods and actually engineered a world in which they reenact the Trojan war; they took a 20th century man and set him in the middle of that war. It is a really cool book. Jenni: Dan Simmons, huh? Good name. Well Kemper, this has been lovely.

Kemper: I'm glad you enjoyed it. I can't wait for the heated e-mails that will come to my web site.


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